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Old 2nd April 2018, 15:52   #1
benny1982
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Even with James Smith I shall never give up.

My ancestor was James Smith who wed Sarah Inkpen in August 1819 at All Saints, Oxford. Witnesses Hannah Hawkes and Andrew Carney. James signed.

James had several children over the next 20 years. He was a brazier/tin plate worker. His children had names such as Sarah, William, Edwin, Charles, Harriet, Eliza, Ann, Elizabeth.

In 1841 James says he was not born in county which was Oxfordshire. Sadly he did not live to see the 1851 census as he died in February 1849 aged 59 of "phthisis, 3 years". A death notice was given in the local newspaper. Just says he was a tin plate worker of St Peter Le Bailey.

I have no record of his birthplace and Oxford seemed to be a honeypot for internal migration. Lots of people from surrounding counties (Berks, Bucks, Gloucestershire) but in 1851 there was lots of people of James Smith's generation living in Oxford who were born as far away as Essex, Kent, Devon, Somerset, Yorkshire and Nottinghamshire. Judging by their children's birthplaces, they seemed to have lived in Oxford for about 20-30 or more years.

I shall not give up even with a name like Smith. May take a while but now that Oxon records are on Anc I shall look at other Smith marriages 1810-1830ish in oxford city to see if James was a witness. I know what his signature was as he signed when he wed in 1819 rather than left a mark. You never know what may come up. Also apparently tin plate workers did an apprenticeship so James may have done an apprenticeship.

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Old 3rd April 2018, 21:04   #2
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Re: Even with James Smith I shall never give up.

Could be a breakthrough. Well the Andrew Carney witness to James Smith's wedding may be significant.

Andrew must have travelled all the way up to Oxford to witness James Smith's wedding in 1819 as it seems he came from London. An Andrew Carney wed in Fleet Street in 1834. I looked at the signature and it seems to match that of the one who witnessed James' marriage in 1819 in Oxford.

A Andrew Carney, widower married in 1842 in St Giles In The Fields. He was a gold size maker. He says his dad was James Carney, a cutler. All metal working occupations like my James was a tin plate worker.

Andrew is on the 1841 census in Clerkenwell aged 53 born c1788 Middlesex.

In 1798 a James Carney was an occupier of a property in Wapping and a tenant was a John Smith. Could be coincidence due to the common surname of Smith but food for though.

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Old 13th May 2018, 17:35   #3
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Re: Even with James Smith I shall never give up.

On the flip side, I have done some digging into the other witness to the wedding of James Smith. Her name was Hannah Hawkes. She was born in Byfield, Northamptonshire in 1800. She had an older brother Jonas Hawkes born in 1797 in Banbury, Oxfordshire. Children of Jonas Hawkes and Mary.

A Jonas Hawkes born c1797 is in the 1841 census in St Peter Le Bailey, Oxford, a tailor. Same parish that my James Smith was living at.

A Jonas Hawkes is in Oxford St Peter In The East in 1841, born c1761-1766. A Jonas Hawkes was baptised in 1764 in Marsh Gibbon, Buckinghamshire, son of Thos and Eliz. Seems the Hawkes family moved from Bucks via rural Oxfordshire to Oxford city.

In 1785, an Elizabeth Hawkes married a Joseph Smith in Marsh Gibbon. She seems to have been baptised in 1767 in Marsh Gibbon, daughter of Thos and Eliz. So it seems Hannah Hawkes had an aunty who married a Smith in Marsh Gibbon.

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Old 13th May 2018, 17:47   #4
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Re: Even with James Smith I shall never give up.

Marsh Gibbon........getting closer to Princes Risbrorough.

Might be related to my James Smith, my 3x Grandfather.

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Old 13th May 2018, 17:59   #5
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Re: Even with James Smith I shall never give up.

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Marsh Gibbon........getting closer to Princes Risbrorough.

Might be related to my James Smith, my 3x Grandfather.
May be.

No obvious link yet to my Smith's but it seems Thomas and Eliz Hawkes had their first child Hannah in 1759. Then Elizabeth, Jonas and Benjamin and Ann.

Several of them ended up in Oxford. Jonas Hawkes born in 1797 was living in St Peter In The East in the early 1820s when James Smith did. Jonas Hawkes was a tailor.

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Old 15th May 2018, 13:53   #6
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Re: Even with James Smith I shall never give up.

Many new Bucks records are on FMP but the transcripts for Marsh Gibbon are taken from Bishops Transcripts rather than original PR's so the witnesses to the Smith marriages in there are still unknown.

I dont think they realise how vital the names of witnesses to marriages are. I once bought some PR transcripts for a Sussex village and to by disappointment the names of witnesses to 1754 onwards marriages were omitted. Why not just transcribe the whole lot, and from original PR's not BT's or Phillimores? That is like building anew hospital but not installing the windows.

Anyway I since found a Thomas Smith in Marsh Gibbon in 1841, not born in county, a brazier. He died in 1847 aged 79.

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Old 15th May 2018, 14:56   #7
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Re: Even with James Smith I shall never give up.

Isn't it infuriating that they die a year or so before the 1851 Census so that you can't find out where they were born. I wish a few of mine had hung on a few years longer!

Emeltee

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Old 15th May 2018, 15:27   #8
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Re: Even with James Smith I shall never give up.

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Isn't it infuriating that they die a year or so before the 1851 Census so that you can't find out where they were born. I wish a few of mine had hung on a few years longer!

Emeltee
Oh yes tell me about it. James Smith died in Feb 1849 aged 59, not born in county as stated in 1841. I am hoping that he was just from one of the surrounding counties to Oxfordshire. The Marsh Gibbon Smith's may be connected. Hannah Hawkes aunty married a Joseph Smith. Knowing my luck, it will be another red herring.

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