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Old 18th July 2010, 05:57   #11
Janet Innes
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Re: Son of King George III - John Stuart Talbot

Yes, when I was a child Grandpa and I compared our teeth and talked about it. I am not quite sure of his number but he had the small gap between his front teeth and pointed eye teeth and small piece of skin between the front teeth. Your father had odd teeth. I think if you think about it you will remember. Maybe if you have the teeth you notice. I have the teeth and I went to S.A. and low and behold my grandfather had my teeth. I noticed. I was a teen-age girl and one notices such a thing. He told me it bothered him when he was young but later people could see that they were his own.

My mother had the irregular small size and crooked teeth if you remember her as a young person, and she had it fixed as an adult. This is found with this gene mutation. There is quite of bit of variation in how it is expressed, not everybody missing teeth. Often people don't think, why do I have a space between my front teeth? What causes this? If you have fewer teeth in your jaw they all have more room. There are a few studies on congenital missing teeth and they know quite a bit about the gene now. This being one variation among many. Not everybody having 32 teeth and not all people having the gene less than 32.

Obviously statistically only half of the offspring would get it in any generation and then it would depend on how it is expressed and mutates. Also once it is out of a line it would be gone. I am no longer a Talbot I just have my grandfather's teeth. It will cluster in related people.

Often it would just be a gap between your front teeth, overly pointed teeth or slightly funny crooked teeth or small irregular teeth or the person may fail to get all their wisdom or molar teeth. I am missing laterals (I have 26 teeth and it just looks like I have a gap between my front teeth). I think in some there are odd shaped skinny laterals. You get your baby teeth but you don't get the permanent teeth. It has to do with the permanent teeth not hardening and erupting. Often the first teeth just stay in place so you may think your tooth is just a bit small and does not have a proper root. With modern dentistry people just have their teeth made perfect. It seems that in some this gene may affect joints in the toe and finger and I think it is linked to soft fingernails.

Funny teeth seem quite common in English families. My mother seemed to think quite a few of the Talbot family in S.A. had funny teeth and that was the side from which Grandpa and her got their teeth. He was born I believe in 1907. So we would have just a couple of generations to the first John Talbot son of John Stuart Talbot both arriving in 1820 to S.A.

It could have been one of the mothers but I found other Talbot forum lines in England that mentioned this mutation and they had the same expression as I did missing laterals and lower permanent molars and some wisdom teeth. As it is a rare mutation I tend to think it probably is an expression of some of the Talbot ancestors.

Now I think the dead princes in the Tower had congenital missing molars. Odd to note it was blamed on their being possibly related to a distant Talbot. This is back quite a long time so not sure about the relationship between the gene my mother and I inherited. Not sure how they would have been related to George III. Keeping track of the ill-begotten children of the Royal family could be a difficult task. Not sure the current one is going to pass the crown so it probably does not matter too much.

At least I'm quite sure we are related and that we are the offspring of those two John Talbots who fell for the scheme in 1820, and now we are scattered around the globe.

You must be my Uncle John. I have not talked to you since the 1980s. I have four sons now, and I just had my first grandson. So the genes live on.

Drop me a line as I would love to hear from any of my family.


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Last edited by DaveHam9; 18th July 2010 at 06:08.
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Old 21st July 2010, 20:30   #12
begailam
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Re: Son of King George III - John Stuart Talbot

Am I the rightful king of England?
Was King George III the father of Margaret Sheldon's son?
By John Talbot
He was an angry man, believing that he had been cheated out of his inheritance, who landed at Algoa Bay on the morning of 15th May, 1820. He arrived on the Brilliant and was on shore to meet his wife and six children when they arrived in the evening aboard the Aurora. John Stuart Talbot, aged 47, claimed to be the rightful Earl of Shrewsbury. But why was King George IV, who acceded to the throne of England on 25th January 1820, seeking his life?
He had been warned by a friend, William Dundas, to get out of England as quickly as possible, as the king was seeking his life. Being impoverished, the only way he could do it was to register as an 1820 settler. He paid the deposit and succeeded in becoming a member of Sephton's party. His eldest son, John, 17 years old at the time, also paid the deposit and was entitled to an additional allotment. The party was given a settlement at Salem, 19 miles from Grahamstown. John Stuart and his son John, were each awarded an allotment astride the Assegai Bush River.
What is the truth about his claim to being the rightful Earl of Shrewsbury? And why was King George IV seeking his life? The mystery surrounding this man has been the subject of 70 years of research by his descendants. There are now more than 120 researchers contributing to the extensive information on The John Stuart Talbot Research Website.
Here is a brief account of what they have found.
The 14th Earl of Shrewsbury, George Talbot, had three brothers. In order of age these were Thomas, James and Francis. A beautiful young lady, Margaret Sheldon, fell in love with Thomas and became his mistress. She bore him a son whom they named Charles. Subsequently, Margaret Sheldon was introduced to the king, George III, and she became a singer and entertainer in his court. Then she became his mistress and fell pregnant by him. He sent her to Cornwall to have the child, whom they named George. The king gave Thomas Talbot a commission and sent him away to war. Margaret was told that Thomas was killed in battle. The king told Francis that "the boy George" was the son of his older brother Thomas, and he forced Francis to marry Margaret and to care for the boy. He gave Francis lands and money in payment for this service. He also gave lands and money in trust for "the boy George."
Francis, believing that George was the son of his older brother, Thomas, realized that he would have birthright over his own sons. In 1796 he took steps, in the Winchester High Court, to make sure that George would not inherit the title. In 1793, in the Hanover Square Court, he succeeded in having all lands, titles and bonds transferred from George to himself. It is recorded that the king agreed with "troubled heart."
Margaret Sheldon died when George was very young. Francis remarried a woman much younger than himself. His stepmother did not like George and was unkind to him. With the help of an uncle she had him put in the navy at the age of 14. He did not like the navy and deserted several times. For this he was flogged and sent back to the navy. He served in the Royal Navy for a number of years, taking part in the Battle of the Nile, the Battle of Trafalgar, an action off Cadiz, and the Battle of Copenhagen. A captain under whom he served said of him, "He is a lion and with him alone I could win ten battles."
In 1791, in the Hanover Square Court, he changed his name to John Stuart Talbot, in honor of an uncle, John Talbot, and his wife whose maiden name was Jane Stuart. This couple had been kind to him.
John Stuart Talbot married Priscilla Loveridge in 1802. He had six children by her, three boys and three girls. Having been deprived of his inheritance, He worked for a time as a shoemaker in Pimlico, London, where he lived. Later he became a coal merchant and a corn merchant, working in the coal exchange and the corn exchange in Pimlico.
In January 1820 King George III died and his son, George IV, acceded to the throne. The latter discovered, presumably from the royal archives, that John Stuart Talbot was his older half-brother. Fearing that John Stuart Talbot had a better claim to the throne than he, he ordered two of his secret agents to locate him and do away with him. A friend of John Stuart's, William Dundas, was privy to this knowledge. He warned John Stuart that the king was seeking his life and told him to get out of England as quickly as possible. He sailed with his family from Gravesend, on Feb 15th 1820 aboard the Aurora. He gave his occupation as "master mariner." On the way he interfered with the navigation of the ship and the captain had him put in irons. At Cape Town he was put ashore and prevented from coming back on board the Aurora. The Aurora had sailed from Gravesend in the company of another ship, the Brilliant. John Stuart went aboard the Brilliant, which arrived at Algoa Bay on the morning of the 15th May 1820. The Aurora arrived in the evening and John Stuart was there to meet his family as they disembarked.
John Stuart's youngest son Henry met up with some Mormon missionaries and became converted to the Mormon religion. He then emigrated with his wife and children to the United States. There he married a second wife who bore him sixteen children. Consequently, John Stuart Talbot has many descendants in the United States. It is mainly these descendants who have solved the mystery of his origin.
I, John Henry Talbot, born in 1931, and living in Johannesburg, South Africa, am the fifth in line of direct descent from John Stuart Talbot. Some of the researchers believe that I am the rightful king of England. Good luck to them!

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Old 21st July 2010, 22:28   #13
duckweed
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Re: Son of King George III - John Stuart Talbot

I can see a flaw in this an illegitimate heir has no claim to the throne so cannot be a threat to the king whoever he is and whenever he was born.

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Old 22nd July 2010, 08:34   #14
John Talbot
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Re: Son of King George III - John Stuart Talbot

[QUOTE=John Talbot;66443]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janet Innes View Post
I have seen the stories about John Stuart Talbot and King George III but do not think it is true. Here is why. I am in a direct line from John Stuart Talbot who went with the 1820 settlers to South Africa in 1820 along with his children.

I have the Talbot family congenital missing teeth. My mother Daphne Talbot did, her father John Talbot did also, getting it from his father John Talbot. Two of my four children have it. This is a dominate gene. All the lines that have inherited it know what I am talking about.

I am quite sure that one thing I do know about this John Stuart Talbot who went to South Africa in 1820 is that he carried a gene for congenital missing teeth. Since this is a gene that runs through some Talbot lines for a very long time I find it compelling to believe he was a Talbot, therefore not the son of George (unless George had missing teeth).[/QUOTE=John Talbot; 56033353] Janet, are you sure about this? I was not aware that my dad, your grandfather, had any missing teeth. I have just counted my teeth and find that I have 32.
In reply to Duckweed:

According to some sources King George III and Margaret Sheldon were married. For example:

King of Great Britain George III William Frederick of Hanover [Parents] 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 was born 7, 8, 9 on 24 May 1738 in Norfolk-House, St. James Square, London, England. He was christened 10, 11 on 4 Jun 1738 in Norfolk House, Westminster, Middlesex, England. He died 12, 13, 14 on 29 Jan 1820 in Windsor Castle, Windsor, Berkshire, England. He was buried 15, 16 on 16 Feb 1820 in Windsor, Berkshire, England, Great Britain. He married Margaret Frances Sheldon. He was employed as King of England in 1760/1820 in London, England, Untied Kingdom. He was employed as Duke of Bruswick-Luneburg in 1760/1820. He was employed as Elector of Hanover in 1760/1815. He was employed as King of Hanover in 1815/1820.
Other marriages:
Lightfoot, Hannah
of Mecklenburg-Strelitz, Sophia Charlotte
[Notes]
Margaret Frances Sheldon 1, 2 was born 3 about 1742 in Norfolk House, Westminster, London, England. She died 4 on 14 May 1846 in Witham, England. She married King of Great Britain George III William Frederick of Hanover.
[Notes]
They had the following children:

M i John Stuart Talbot 1, 2, 3 was born 4 on 27 Apr 1773 in of St. Margaret, Westminister, London, Middsex., Eng.I. He died 5 on 20 Oct 1853 in Grahamstown, Cape of Good Hope, South Africa. He was buried 6 in Oct 1853 in Grahamstown, Cape of Good Hope, South Africa. [Notes]

Spickler and Rockwood Genealogy

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Old 22nd July 2010, 18:06   #15
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Re: Son of King George III - John Stuart Talbot

They could not have been legitimately married. There were specific rules about royal marriage and for any marriage to have legitimacy it had to be approved and public. There have been at least 2 supposed royal marriages , one to a catholic and one to a quaker with the Georges but they were declared illegal. Also for a child of a king to be legitimate he would have to be declared publicly so by his father and an act of Parliament would have to be made to declare the marriage legitimate. If you look up the history of John O Gaunt for instance who had a mistress and several children by her, it was a long legal procedure to declare the children legitimate after John married Katherine Swynford

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Old 7th February 2014, 21:42   #16
lathand
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Re: Son of King George III - John Stuart Talbot

I have been researching John Stuart Talbot for quite some time. I am related - grandmother was Mabel Annie Talbot and her father was Benjamin Talbot. I noted Janet Innes information on the congenital problem with the teeth. My Mom Kathleen May (Born Langfield) has the gap in the front teeth with piece of skin she referred to - she is still alive, the last surviving child of Mabel Annie Talbot and is 93 years of age. My bottom set of Wisdom teeth never appeared ... so I don't have the full set of teeth.

Interesting that most of these posts are from distant relatives of mine.

Also a pity that the posts on this subject seem to have ended.

Diane

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